I’ve mentioned many times that close to 100% of my biking and skiing partners are dudes. I have long wondered why this is. Months ago I wrote on my idea whiteboard “Are dudes more fun?” It’s been up there so long it’s not erasable anymore. This means that every single time I sit at my desk I see that question. Therefore I am forced to consider: well, are they?
I got to thinking about the pros and cons of riding with dudes. I (obvio) consider there to be more pros than cons; or at least that the pros that exist tend to outweigh the cons, or else I wouldn’t ride with dudes. So here’s my take on it. This kind of turned into a crazily cross-referenced Choose Your Own Adventure (TM?) but you know, rarely are things so black and white that they can fit into one of these ever popular list-style blog posts.
Pro #1. They’re fast.
Dudes ride and ski and climb fast. You never have to worry about being bored with a slow pace with dude partners. They mostly get ready fast. They seem to understand that a “2pm meet at trailhead” plan means BE READY at the trailhead at 2pm. If they aren’t fast, they get dropped or ditched or fall behind. And I like to move fast, so I like to ride with guys. I don’t think this is because they’re fastER, per se, it’s because they don’t want to NOT be fast. So everyone in the group tries their damndest to not only keep up, but to be the fastest. Almost every ride contains this conversation:
Front guy: “You want to pass? My legs are dead today” Oh please, oh please let him pass so I don’t have to work so hard.
Second guy: “Nah, you’re fine.” Oh hell no I don’t want to pass, I’ll have to work harder.
Me: Look at those dumbasses killing themselves to see who’s fastest. They’re gonna need a long-ass break at the next intersection. I’ll just chill here in the back so I can keep going without needing to puke.
Better yet, is the mid-pack position. You get to have a break when you catch up to the speediest guys while you wait for the back-of-pack to get there, but you don’t have to wait so long that you get cold. This is an art that takes experience to truly perfect. My secret weapon is offering to break trail on the way back. Yeah, I work hard, but the guys who broke trail all the way out are usually heavier than me, so they STILL have to work hard on the way back. Heh heh.
But seriously. If you want to get fast, ride with fast people. You will be forced to get faster. Yes, it hurts, yes, it can delve into the realm of Type 3 “Fun,” but just find some faster people and ride or ski with them. It honestly doesn’t really matter if they’re dudes or chicks, but see pro #5.
Pro #2. Better conversation.
“Let me complain for the next three hours of our ride all about my relationship,” said no guy I’ve ever ridden with, ever. Droning on and on about your last breakup is a GREAT way to never ever ride with me again. This post is a great opportunity for me to tell you, readers: I don’t care about your boyfriend. Really I don’t. Stop talking about him. Unless he’s a friend of mine, I am not interested in what he’s doing. Dudes don’t hurt my ears telling me all about their girlfriends’ graduate studies. Why do women like to talk about their boyfriends so much? Stop it.
Pro #3. Easier to schedule.
I don’t know what this is all about. I call the guys, “want to ride?” and I get a “yes, see you then” or “no.” I call a woman, “want to ride?” I get a loooonnng delay in calling me back. Then fifteen phone calls or texts considering all the options. Then some expressed concern about wanting to not be the slowest. Then cautioning about having to get back at a certain time or having to check with their boyfriend or kids or whatever. By the time they figure out if they want to go on the ride, I’m already riding. No clue what is going on here, but for some reason it seems like women have a harder time getting out for a ride or ski. Just go, ladies, the kids will survive, the husband can fend for himself, society will not crumble.
Pro #4. Speaking of crumbling society, guys never show up with their nine year old in tow.
At least not without telling you first (I’m guessing. No guy has ever brought his kid along on a ride with me, full stop). Why? See pro #1. Listen, I don’t want to ride with your kid, ladies. Kids are slow, needy, and annoying. There’s a reason I don’t have any. I probably don’t want to ride with your boyfriend either. There’s a reason I don’t have one of those either; boyfriends are similarly needy and annoying. Kidding! (Not really). I don’t like a whole lot of interpersonal dynamics messing up my day. If I invite you on a ride, I am not inviting your whole family. Get a babysitter. Dudes seem to have a handle on this. I guess that’s what wives are for? See Con #5.
Pro #5. Less drama.
If a dude falls down, he gets up and keep going. If a chick falls down…I don’t know, you tell me, I don’t really ever ride with women other than my friend Sue who rides like a dude, crashes like a NASCAR driver, and gets right up and keeps going. So maybe I’m off base with this one. I just know you don’t have to cringe for an aftermath if a guy crashes his bike (unless you ride with really whiny guys; I’m sure they’re out there). If you’re on a dude ride and you crash, consider yourself lucky to hear “you ok?” as your dude partner rides by without stopping. It’s a dude ride. They’re gonna keep going. Pull yourself together and catch up.
Bonus Pro: They bring booze. I admit I couldn’t figure out whether to put this in “pro” or “con” because sometimes dudes overdo this aspect of outdoor fun. But, ultimately, a summit beer is a good thing, so, pro.
Con #1. They’re known for making dumb, ego-driven decisions.
You really gotta watch it when you’re out with dudes. They don’t really think things through. I could try to convince you, but I’m just going to fall back on Tremper, Fredston, and Fesler to back me up. If you’re gonna go out in the backcountry with guys, make sure YOU know what you’re doing and don’t have any qualms about bailing if you don’t like the situation. They might go on without you – you’ll have to be OK with that.
Con #2. They don’t look where they’re going.
When I stop my bike suddenly and yell “moose!” That means there is a moose in the trail. It does not mean that the guy following should race by me harder and faster so that he can try to clear whatever obstacle I couldn’t get my bike over. It means there’s a moose on the trail and we should all stop.
(This particular episode culminated with the guy right behind me passing me without looking and almost running into the moose, and the guy behind HIM getting taken out by my bike tire as I spun my bike around to flee the moose, certain that guy #1 was going to irritate the moose enough for it to stomp us all, ending up with guy #2 falling through my bike frame and consequently knocking ME down in an exasperated tangle of moose-bait. Luckily the moose opted to go the other way, probably wanting no part of our goat rope.)
In general guys are too busy trying to achieve pro #1 to bother to actually watch where they are going or think about what they are doing. This is also indicative of the next con:
Con #3. They want to look cool in front of other guys.*
Sometimes this leads to a lot of mountaintop posturing when it’s -10F and all I want to do is ski the hell down so I can start back up and warm my feet up. I don’t have time to listen to you guys trade interesting tales of how much you know about bindings or what you think of those new-this-year planks the other dude is sporting. Just shut up and ski.
Con #4. They never carry hand sanitizer.
Every time a dude steps off the trail to relieve himself, I make a mental note to not touch anything he touches from there on out. Especially not his gloves. Ew, guys, ew. We all know what you’re doing over there. I guess this is pretty smart, actually, because they never have to share their food, just hold it out with a urine-and-ball-sack-sweat-coated hand “want some?” The answer will always be “no.”
Con #5. They focus only on themselves.
OK, not all the time, and in the case of my regular partners, hardly ever. But sometimes dudes are prone to some extremely selfish behavior. Once my buddy Todd broke his chain on a tough climb. It wasn’t an easy fix and we were inundated with horrible mosquitoes the entire time. The guy we were riding with was all “I’m gonna keep going, this is lame” and bailed. Todd’s bike wasn’t fixable, as it turned out, so he scootered it back to the trailhead as I followed. No way am I leaving a compatriot alone with a disabled bike in bear/moose country. That’s against the complex code of ski/ride partners. You don’t leave your wingman.** Even if you barely know each other and are just out for a random ride. By the way, I’ve never seen that dude who left us there ever again, and I pretty much hope not to. THAT’S the kind of dude who pretty much makes up the entire “con” section of this article. However, I think this item also explains #3 and #4 of the “pro” section. Guys are not afraid of being “selfish” and going for a ride when they want to. Ladies, you can learn from this.
Bonus Con: They STINK. Pay more attention to what you’re eating, dudes, please. Yes, we can smell you. Master that uneasy tummy, or ride behind us. Also, wash your shirt.
So, are guys more fun? From all my careful consideration I have deduced that some guys are more fun than some chicks. However, some chicks are way better to hang out with than some guys.
Good thing I can’t erase that white board anymore.
*I’m pretty sure that’s why every outdoors Internet forum is choked with dudes. Guys, don’t you ever get sick and tired of trying to impress the same handful of people over and over and over again? Look, they say, I went here, here, and here. I skied this, this, and this. I’m sure my day was better than yours. No, say the others, my day was better, I skied this and this instead. And this was better snow than your snow, I’m sure of it, here are some pictures to prove it. And on and on. Deadly dull, really. Dudes are fun in real life, super lame on the Internet.
**This has actually happened to me with a female partner, too, so this item is really utter tosh. I just needed a way to round out the list. Don’t be selfish, people, your ride or ski or climb is not more important than your companions’ safety. Well, if it is, do everyone a favor and just go solo. Forever.
Interesting. Not really my experience. I found that after I got married, guys just didn’t invite me along anymore. I know. Weird.
If I were to be that foolish, I’d expect the same treatment
There’s something about women that threaten the hell out of dudes. If you’re single, you’re scary because you’re a threat to their relationship (whatever). If you’re married, you’re…pointless? Now THAT is some crazy dude logic right there.
Hm, that was supposed to be little devil face, not little stupid smile face. That’s what I get for using emoticons ever.
I definitely am feeling the pointless vibe. Sad but true, especially because those guys had no chance anyhow.
heh heh, I see a post forming from that comment! You are so right.
Same here. If my husband disappears for whatever reason (like his recent deployment) “our” dude friends seem to think I’ve disappeared, too. I’ve been called by friends before asking about him, but not extending the invite to me. I’m NOT his freaking secretary. You email him, and if he doesn’t respond, that’s your problem. Bah! Very frustrating for me.
See? Con #5. The more this conversation goes on, the more I think that list is 100% accurate.
I have to tell you, this stings a little. I’m perfectly happy being emotionally distant and skiing hard without personal conversation. If I fall I’ll get myself up and find you but sometimes my family comes first. That means that my days often end at 3pm.
No, the universe won’t crumble if I’m not there but (and this may be hard for many people to understand) I love my family life. I love being with them and I treasure the time we have together. I sort of squeeze my girlfriends in when there are breaks in family time, I don’t squeeze my family in to my free time.
I think that’s why when we have kids we lose a lot of our single friends. Priorities change.
First of all, seeing your comment was kind of like having a blog celebrity stop by, ha! Thanks for reading
That particular list item, while meant to be humorous, came from a time period in which I was trying to get a women’s mountain bike riding group together but the women I found kept scheduling family rides, beginner rides, and kid rides, none of which are really my thing. We’d plan on going for a ride so I’d schedule my day around it and and show up ready to rock it only to be met by someone’s kid or kids. I planned on a workout; going at nine year old’s pace and choice of trail is not how I want to spend my hard earned riding time. So, maybe the lesson is to ask first? Showing up out of the blue with a kid (or dog, I’m the same way about dogs) in tow when you didn’t mention you would have them along is bound to be dismaying if the people you’re meeting don’t expect it.
I am left to wonder why it’s so much more common for women to bring along their kids? The dudes seem to get it. It just seems to be a no brainer for them. Why is this? Are women stuck with the kids more often, or are dudes just more prone to be fine with getting their “me” time? Why can men so much more readily bail from family obligations to go have adventures and take big trips? Why is it easier for them? I am genuinely fascinated by this phenomenon.
This also brings up all those other singles vs. marrieds issues. I admit that if I feel “squeezed in” when a friend gets married then I probably will not bother to maintain that friendship. Always feeling like a tax on someone’s spare time isn’t a great way to feel so you can’t blame people for moving on with their lives.
In general, I think time away from family is healthy and good. You of all people know your kids are fine when you’re not there, so if you’re doing something important to you, they’ll be fine on their own. And what on earth is a husband for if not to help pick up the slack when you have something you want to do? (Guys have this dialed. See Con #5.)
“I am left to wonder why it’s so much more common for women to bring along their kids? The dudes seem to get it. It just seems to be a no brainer for them. Why is this? Are women stuck with the kids more often, or are dudes just more prone to be fine with getting their “me” time? Why can men so much more readily bail from family obligations to go have adventures and take big trips? Why is it easier for them? I am genuinely fascinated by this phenomenon.”
How is this difficult to understand?
Explain it, then.
The availablity thing is two sides of the sexism coin. I’ve known women with kids who continued to participate in the same actvities and (fewer who did so) at the same level they did pre-kids…these women, 100% of them, had husbands on the sideline or at home with the kids. The women that bail on outings or show up kids in tow, those are the same ones whose husbands are off having me-time. In my observation, it takes a strong self-centeredness and a refusal to settle for anything less than a partner committed to an egalitarian relationship for a woman to maintain her pre-marriage and pre-kids activities. Anything less than that won’t work, b/c dudes are accustomed to value their own time, expect to have it, and expect the majority of child-raising will be done by the mother. It’s 2012 and shouldn’t be that way anymore, but it still is a lot of the time. It’s a lifestyle trap that people fall into and it takes a lot of effort to negotiate life changes like marriage and kids without being subsumed by the prevailing, shitty gender roles that are still part of the culture.
Exactly.
“Dudes are accustomed to value their own time.” That’s exactly it. And that’s an important skill.
My husband is weird. He wants to be with the kids so he probably wouldn’t ski with you.
I can’t speak for anyone’s home but mine is set up traditionally (old fashioned if you will). This means that my time is my own from 8am to 3pm but once the kids are home my time belongs to my family. I’m happy this way and I’ve chosen to have people in my life who either live similarly or respect my decisions and are able to get free when we are.
It’s just a short while and before we know it everyone’s kids will be up and raised, your friends will be empty nesters and you’ll see them again.
Sometimes when you’re in the middle of parenting it’s easy to forget that not everyone is. That’s all.
“get free when we are”
THAT is why friends disappear, though. You’re sending them the message that you don’t care about them anymore.Not everyone can (or should) alter their schedule to fit other people’s all the time. It pretty much cuts out everyone who has a regular job, for instance. So be it, but it leaves people with little choice other than to just move on, if a person simply won’t meet their friends halfway.
Just like you choose to only be friends with people who live the same lifestyle…I guess so would I, really. Turns out I can’t really be friends with people who can’t put their kids in the care of the other parent EVER. So, it’s really the same sentiment, it’s not anything different than you saying you won’t alter your schedule for the lifestyle of people who don’t want kids around.
There are a lot of people with kids who aren’t fussed about handing them over to the other parent for a few hours or a few days or weeks. It does seem as if most of those people are guys.
Here’s where it gets tricky Jill.
I leave my kids with their dad all the time. Sometimes I do it because I want a break but more often I do it because I get a lot of time with them and I think it’s important for him to have time with them.
Now, with that being said my husband works long hours so when a weekend rolls around I really want to be with him. I like him. In fact the four of us really enjoy being together so we end up spending time with people who like our kids and quite often that means that we end up with other families.
When people don’t like my kids I don’t like them. I don’t know how to say that without sounding mean, but if I was your local friend reading this and I had kids I’d probably be your ex-friend. Many parents just love our kids so much that we don’t want to be around people who don’t like them.
I’m not in agreement that not wanting kids along on every outing equals not liking someone’s kids in particular. It just means the person doesn’t want to be on a kid outing, they want to be on an adult outing. I agree that if I had friends who brought their kids along every time I probably wouldn’t see them too often because it would be annoying to not have adult time with the friend in question. Mostly it’s just a matter of being considerate and making sure everyone’s on the same page. Not everyone wants to go at kid pace or deal with kid stuff. I don’t really ever have this conflict with any real life friends so I figure people understand how it all works.
When I think back to the platonic adventure partnerships I’ve cultivated, I count a virtually equal number of men and women. The person I typically went on long meandering bike rides and discussed relationships with was a super-fast guy (higher level endurance MTB racer), and the one who pushes me the hardest to clean tough technical problems is a woman. I get that your article was written tongue-in-cheek to poke fun at stereotypes, but I had to laugh at the thought that nearly none of these stereotypes apply to my friends (with the exception of course of guys always trying to race each other.)
You can’t convince me that any dude carries hand sanitizer.
Good point. I don’t either, though. I subscribe to the unscientific theory that being a little bit germy builds strong immune systems. Ha! (I do, however, almost never leave the house for a ride or run without a stack of Wet Wipes.)
Ha ha! Someone asked me, upon reading this, “you bring hand sanitizer???” Now I can say that I’m not the only one.
As an expert in the area (sic) I can state with certainty that the clinical microbiology of sweaty genitalia is identical to that of skin pretty much anywhere else on your body. Eliminating the normal bacterial flora from your hands creates an ecological vacuum on your hands that allows the possibility of multiresistant bugs setting up shop. If the concern is STDs, of course that’s another story…
It may be clinically the same but it’s also really just nasty! Though, clean hands are a blank slate, really? You kid, right?
Being a chick, some of this was a bit…insulting. I don’t have kids, but watching my other outdoor-sport friends deal with theirs, it seems that dudes being selfish is why their wives have so much trouble getting out or have to bring their kids. I don’t consider dumping the responsibility of kids on your partner all the time so you can go play an admirable quality- it’s actually kind of douchey in my opinion, especially if that partner would like to be out playing on occasion too. This is actually one if the reasons I don’t have kids, because I know I’d end up climbing less while hubby leaves me with kids to go climb.
Personally, I like going out with other chicks because I enjoy going a little slower (I’m one of those slow pokes), I like being able to talk about relationship stuff with someone (rather talk about that stuff while climbing then say, at a nail salon) and I like that my female partners tend to consider the needs of everyone in the group when making decisions. When they push me to do something a little harder because they know I can do it, I find it to be more sincere, whereas my male partners often assume things are ‘so easy’ of course I can do it, where in reality, it’s easy for them, but not so much for me.
My guy partners I tend to appreciate for their sense of humor. I have the sense of humor of a 14 year old boy and I have yet to find a chick who can hold a candle to me in the dirty joke department. If I ever find a chick like that- I might swear off climbing with dudes forever
That was pretty much one of the snarky points here – that dudes have figured out it’s OK to let the spouse deal with the kid. I don’t understand why this behavior is rewarded/perpetuated/validated. They’ve figured it out, though, so they get to go out and play. Women can learn from this.
Wow, this is sexist as fuck.
“Women are slow, weak, full of drama, and boring. [I, of course, am the glowing exception."]
“Men are thoughtless, and they stink.”
That you’d “expect the same treatment” [no longer getting invited on rides if you got married] implies you damn well know that most of the guys you ride with think all the same things about women as you do [slow, weak, boring], but they hold out hope of fucking you, so you still get to come along.
WOW. just…. wow.
Stick out of ass, honey. It’s a joke. (Psst. It’s also sexist to suggest that men only want women’s company if sex is on the table.)
Married or not doesnt matter in this aspect.
When I think about it, most of my partners are dudes. I like hanging out with dudes but I also enjoy spending time with women because a lot of times, intentional or otherwise, the dynamic of the conversation is different (ie- how can dudes talk about the pros and cons of various ski bindings for SO LONG!?!? Quite impressive, actually. Also, most of my guy friends aren’t quite as sarcastic as I am, and it’s nice to have someone to be sarcastic with.) I will say though, I have a guy friend who fits so perfectly into your Pro #5 description of a chick hemming and hawing over plans. The man can never make up his mind about ANYTHING but usually that just means that his ass gets left behind. I do like that guys are fast though. Sometimes it hurts a lot but I always know that I’m getting a great workout and pushing myself maybe a bit more than I otherwise would have. I do have fears of not being able to keep up, but I’ve found that even if I fall behind at some point, I usually end up catching back up eventually (have you found that men stop to pee a LOT? I have). And then there’s the dynamic that Mary mentioned about being married, which you’re right, is definitely post material.
Pro #3 description I mean. My b.
Yep, I too know guys that hem and haw over plans. I feel for Scott sometimes because he’s usually the ringleader, making forty phone calls and waiting for everyone to make up their mind. But if a dude doesn’t get it together, like you said, he gets left behind. And no one seems to get hurt feelings over it.
By the way, men do stop “to pee” a lot, but in large part because they kill themselves trying to be the fastest and need to find a way to take a break. Do not be fooled.
The being married thing – I don’t know. Most of my dude partners are married or coupled up, but they don’t have wives/girlfriends who like to do this stuff. I don’t know what would happen if I were the one to get married, but probably nothing would change unless I were the one to change it. No one seems to care about relationship status unless the spouse is the jealous/controlling type or if the relationship gets in the way of the mission. Doesn’t happen in my group, thank goodness.
Yeah none of my friends male or female fit into these gender stereotypes. Just as an example, one of my male BFFs who is a hard core backcountry skier can talk relationships and feelings all day and into the night. He can also easily conquer a 10,000 feet day or hang back and teach me kick turn technique (I am a fairly new skier). My core ski group definitely defies these stereotypes. I think at its core while I enjoy various activities I enjoy them most when in the company of kick ass friends who are good people, good friends and good conversation. If it means I have to haul ass to go faster or go slower to stay with a friend I have no problem at all. If a friend needs to talk something out, there’s no better time and place than hours on the trail. I guess we all have our own motivations and interests, but I can’t imagine feeling the way you do, especially since the reality is that gender doesn’t necessarily dictate a whole lot. I value my relationships far above how hard charging or slow we are going and try to be a good friend and listen when it’s needed. You never know when you will need to bend a friend’s ear out there.
So my conclusion is right on target, I take it!
But feel free to tell me to shut the hell up if I ever get to going on and on about my boyfriend or spend hours bitching about my relationship. I’ve been that person before. It’s tedious for everyone. And, evidently, if you spend hours and hours listening to someone go on about their relationship, best case scenario is that it all works out for them and then they can feel free to dump you citing “changing priorities.”
Clearly I’m not the person to bring relationship troubles to, ha! “Break up” is always my answer.
If I had a friend droning on and on about a boyfriend after a few dates, sure, not that interesting. But when a close friend learns that his/her wife/husband has been cheating and leaves my friend, I think it is appropriate for the person to talk about it at great length and for me to listen sympathetically and offer advice if asked.
I think i don’t know what your conclusion is, if you have one. I think you are trying to rile people up :p
Woman, my conclusion is right there at the end of the article!
Jesus, what do you have against skimming!
Ok yes that is a conclusion I agree with.
So nice to read!
Usually, I go out alone. That saves a lot of trouble.
Including thinking of sexMaybe thats not an option in Alaska.
Thinking about sex is a great way to stay warm! Somehow even the most terrible bivvy seems more bearable if you have a rich fantasy life.