Here’s a charming “trail conditions” post from a cross country skier advocating picking fights to defend “his” trails. According to him it’s a “war and we must win it.”
Seriously?
People like this are why I carry pepper spray.
Let’s all get on the same page here. No matter what, you don’t have the right to “confront” other trail users. The best you can do is get all pissed off inwardly and, if you must throw a hissy fit, throw the hissy fit to the police when you report the egregious offense of a person enjoying the outdoors on public trails. If you confront, follow, or otherwise harass other people you’re simply asking for a response that you might not enjoy.
*Edit: Although the comments below are mainly debating the merits of ski-only trails, the main point of this post was to state that it’s not OK to pick fights with and harass other trail users, no matter what. Ski/ride/walk/run/move on by and leave other people in peace unless there is something highly illegal and/or violent going on. A bitchface is your only recourse. Unless someone is being assaulted or harassed, move on and simply report your sightings to the proper authorities. If someone IS being assaulted or harassed, do your societal duty and jump in to defend them.
Edit #2: To the guy who wrote the post above: I’ll post the three aggressive diatribes you attempted to submit to this site with the condition that they are posted under your real name. I know what your real name is, but I won’t post it without your permission, because I know how to act appropriately, something you may consider learning.
Oi, Anchorage. I made the mistake of pedaling onto a ski-only trail in Hillside last winter. Genuinely didn’t see the sign. I thought something was amiss after 300 yards of a trail that was well groomed with no tire tracks, and was already moving to turn around when a skier stormed up from behind to yell at me. I think she skied off the main trail just to catch me. I was apologetic and told her I made a mistake and was turning around, but damn, you’d think I’d killed her puppy for how red-faced-ragey she was.
Had an incident here in California last weekend while snowshoeing on the Glacier Point ski trail in Yosemite National Park. Trail etiquette — not rules, just etiquette — asks snowshoers to walk single-file to the right side of the set tracks, which is what we did for most of the 10-mile hike in. I moved into the center lane once for about three minutes to chat with Beat and a skier complained with “you know you’re completely stomping up the skate track.” If I add up all of my confrontations with skiers over the years, their collective grumpiness eclipses all other trail users to an exponential degree. To an outsider, cross-country skiing seems like a joyless sport.
I couldn’t agree more. How can anyone get THAT pissed off if they’re out having fun? There’s no way they can be deriving any enjoyment out of that activity.
I’m also tired of the argument that the skiers own the trails because they pay for them. Here in Anchorage, the municipality subsidizes ski trails with grants and pays for the light bill for lighted ski trails. The municipality provides the land for the trails as well as the land and infrastructure on which to store trail grooming equipment. Every taxpayer has a stake in these trails that somehow are reserved only for the use of XC skiers. How did that happen? I can only surmise that the XC ski crowd is also the “money” crowd, giving them unfair influence in local government.
Hmmm. I like cross country skiing and have been doing it for many years. Have never been rude or witnessed this type of behavior. Nobody I know is rich either. I think its like everything else, a few bad apples rile up some folks. You see it in every sport.
It’s funny, but most of my negative interactions with skiers happened when I was on skis (mainly in Homer, Alaska). I’ve been lectured for taking my skis off to walk up a steep hill and told after a crash that I needed to stay out of the tracks “as an accident-prone person” whose falls were cutting tiny grooves into the tracks. And don’t get me started on the icy stares directed my way when I dared take my mountain bike on these public, undefined trails when they were hardpacked enough to do so. (Yes they were groomed for skiing. And yes, I was a paying member of the Nordic Ski Club.) Grumpy skiers are a bit of a sensitive issue for me because I found these interactions upsetting enough to quit the sport and stay away from ski-specific trails altogether. (Of course, discovering that I’m terrible at XC skiing also factored into this decision.)
I think Jill M. can attest to just how contentious these “trail wars” are in Anchorage, with the explosion of fat bikes right now. It’s just a matter of one user group adjusting to the growing presence of another user group when they were used to having the winter trails to themselves.
I’ve had XC skiers be shitty to me when I was XC skiing, too! It’s one of the reasons I don’t care for the sport; sharing trails with those people is totally unpleasant here no matter what gear you’re on. I’m not good at it either, Jill, but I was not inspired to get better after witnessing what I was in for if I stayed with it. The nasty looks, the grumbling, the purposeful crowding if you’re slower than elite – no thanks.
The fat biking thing is the first major threat to come along in a while as far as the ski-only trails are concerned, but even before fat bikes hit the scene, every single year it’s a major headache listening to skiers gripe about runners, walkers, dogs, horses, less-than-perfect-at-all-times trail grooming, OMG even though it’s after April 1 there’s still snow on the trail, how dare you assume you’re allowed to use it, and general grouchiness. They have hysterics if they see a footprint on the trail, but somehow they manage to crowd up the few multi-use trails we have, sharing them (grumpily) with dogs, bikes, and horses all the while claiming it’s “unsafe” to ski where anyone else has traveled.
You can probably sense some bad feeling here, and it’s because I’m so tired of the whole thing. It’s cultivated a generation of adult toddlers who can neither share nor cooperate.
I am definitely not snobs or monied. I cross country ski because it’s cheap and easy. I do it with my dogs and without, depending on where I am going.. I never take them through kincaid. I guess I figure that if the trails have been beautifully groomed for the purpose of skiing, give us a little time to enjoy it before tearing it all up. We’re really not asking for much. A few months and bikers and hikers get it back.
Nine months seems more than “a few”. I think that there are so many trails – if they all were multi use the issue would be moot. The use would be spread out and everything would be fine. If there were maybe one loop in each park that was reserved for XC skiing I might be inclined to agree with you, but the ski club wants to lay claim to hundreds of miles of trail and dictate who gets to use it and when.
The bike club has built lots of trails recently, but doesn’t get to claim them for their exclusive use (nor does anyone want to, it’s just silly). Why we have let skiers act like that for so long is really a mystery to me, but it needs to change.
I also can’t resist pointing out that the guy making that post even admits there’s hardly any snow and there is dirt showing through the trails. Talk about entitled.
Thanks for your post on snowio. I really enjoy that site and was rather disappointed to see it turn into what it has. That took Bravado to call that trail-fascist on what he posted. You are the voice of a thousand silent citizens. You rock.
Thanks. I’d like to see more people speak up (appropriately of course) about opening the trails to all users. Our multi use trails are overused and crowded (by skiers as well as others) while skiers get to brag about “not seeing another skier all day”. It’s not appropriate for public trails to be reserved like that.
I know a few people have tried to comment on the ski forum about this issue but haven’t gotten past the moderator. I’m pleased he let my comment through, at least.
Ugh. The biggest conflict I tend to have is with horses. There’s no easy answer since some horse owners basically think you should make yourself invisible if they’re going to ride the trails.
Horses can be hard on trails, but I personally haven’t had any confrontations with horse riders – just inner grumbling about one particular local commercial outfit who likes to trash trails and then make its own new ones. They piss me off, but I don’t chase them, confront them, threaten them, or act like a total ass to them. I just inwardly grumble.
I should mention I’m a longtime horse owner myself. I think that horses belong in arenas, not trails, but if you take your horse on the trail, it better be bombproof because you’ll encounter bikes, people, dogs, etc. People bring their untrained horses out and then think everyone else should accommodate their crazy animal. So I’m with you there for sure.
I don’t advocate fighting or being rude. I do, however, see the need to have ski-only trails available and enforced. Skate skiing on properly groomed corduroy is wonderful – the xc equivalent to snowboarding through through dry powder. Skate skiing on uneven trails marked up by footprints and snowshoe divots is unpleasant and can be dangerous. It’s tough to explain until you’ve experienced falling flat on your face after hitting an unexpected / unseen hole in the surface.
Multi-use trails don’t work for skate skiing so trails for both need to be available. Bottom line is that my husband and I along with most of our friends would stop skate skiing if the only option was multi-use trails.
(FYI – I don’t ski classic because it looks really boring. Also I was traumatized as a child taken on forced xc ski marches with poorly waxed wooden skis.)
People skate ski on multi use trails here all the time. It’s why I find the “sharing trails is dangerous” argument to be incorrect; it just can’t be true. If it were that hard, we’d never see skiers on our multi use trails, but they are always there (I think people like to ski with their dogs, in part, again, showing that it’s OK to have other users on trails along with skiers). The longest skate ski race in this town is on multi-use trails. I’ve skied on the multi use trails myself and I suck at it, and still never felt that it was dangerous to do so. I think people need to get better at skiing if they can’t handle a few marks on a trail (just like we do on bikes – we don’t sanitize trails, we just get better at riding).
XC skiing in general is boring to me, but classic – ugh, yeah – that’s just awful, those little tracks to slide along in. Unless you’re in the backcountry off-trail, which is what XC skiing was designed for, I just don’t get it.
The majority of the xc skiing I’ve done is in privately run nordic centre areas, usually located on leased land within a park. The only local nordic centre has the highest trail pass fees in Canada, the worst grooming and lax enforcement of ski-only trails. Ambient temperature hover around freezing so snow is more “sensitive” than in other regions due to the daily freeze-thaw cycle.
I would imagine that in colder climates that multi-use is more practical.
I ran the Costal Trail the other day and the only other traffic I saw was skate skiers and fat bikers. TONS of skate skiers. Fortuantely, they were all very nice and passed courteously, but you’re right, there seems to be no issues with skate skiers on the multi-use trails, so why is it such a big deal that they need to have ski only trails.
Wow! the post of that guy seems for looking at the “Hunter Game” … but as I read from him is in the position of the SKATE SKIERS more than XC skiers. And I would like to mention that between Skate skiers and XC skiers could be huge… in my experieence.
I’m a runner and biker, I tried XC skiing and didn’t like it. And the attitude of the Skate Skiers of owning the trails had been show me that little war. And I’m fighting with that every single time.
So, what’s the game? If I see a XC skier in the STA trails, I can go hunt them and put my bike as their tie around the neck?! Because I dig those trails with my hands and more people, so they are exclusive for bikers! … But no, we are not that kind of mofo’s we share trails, we get pissed too, we move, etc. We are different kind of people.
But… Honestly I have been protecting and fighting that attitude with skate skiers in multi-use trails. Those trails are for EVERYBODY and if you wanna ski in the middle going left and right like a dancer-owner you will probably find a mofo running or biking in the same middle line.
But if you move right, I’ll do it too and say Hi.
Back to that guy… If he really want a play the “Hunting Game”… let’s see what he will do when he find a Big Sign in the snow saying “You Mad ERF?” when he find it made it with the most aggressive snowshoes from MSR…
That’s actually a good point – a lot of “regular” XC skiers are cool and fun, when I meet them on trails they are nice as can be. As long as they are on classic skis and on multi use trails they seem decent people. They seem to understand the notion of sharing trails. It’s the ones who claim they can’t POSSIBLY ski on anything but PERFECT trails that need to adjust their attitudes.
For the past few years I’ve been quietly observing this spectacle that is skiers throwing a fit over non-skiers on ski only trails, primarily through the above mentioned web forum. I don’t go on there much because when these issues arise, they usually cause me to lose what teeny shred of hope I still have for the human race.
I’ve deduced that trying to argue (or rationalize) with the people who say things similar to this “man” is like trying to explain to an infant why they should just ask for something they want instead of crying all the time. Not that it’s not a fight worth fighting, but I’ve decided that I’m not the one that’s going to do it. I’d rather beat my head against a brick wall.
Last year I did a good bit of XC skiing with a friend, and although our outings were casual and we weren’t ‘training’ for anything per se, I never ever had an issue skiing on the multi-use trials, which were pretty much all we skied on. Those tracks they put in on the side are nice, but they’re not necessary to XC ski. Also, while they weren’t perfect, they were just as functional with whatever damage from foot traffic, which was never significant. As a beginner skiier, I never had any difficulty skiing on multi-use trails.
I believe I’ve said this before, but skiiers crying about people walking/fat biking/etc. on groomed trails is like me as a runner complaining about mountain bikers making ruts in the mud/dirt on the trails in the summer. It’s ridiculous. If it’s that scary and dangerous, maybe this isn’t your ‘sport’ and you need to take up knitting or something a little milder.
Yeah. There comes a point where we must acknowledge we are not the Idiot Whisperer. I felt that guy’s aggression towards others should be pointed out publicly, but I recognize the futility of trying to make him (and others like him) see how ridiculous they are acting.
People crying over less than pristine trails in the outdoors really need to just stay home. Take up another sport (ping pong?), get a treadmill or one of those XC ski machines, that way the surface is never uneven or scary and they never have to share space with another human being.
I agree that it’s not that hard to ski on a shared trail. I’ve done it myself and I’m a lousy XC skier. I never had a problem; how is this even POSSIBLE when such experts can’t manage to ski on anything other than perfect courdoroy?
To add to the conversation: I ski-all kinds, all places, walk, dogwalk, skijor and mush.. I use many different trails.. I’ve been a trail user in Anchorage for 30 years and have seen the changes. The Nordic Ski Club has turned many trails into inviting groomed highways. Very tempting when multi-use trails are lumps of ice, or deep snow.
I do believe in ski only trails and yes even classic only trails. Most of the ski only trails were put in by volunter labor and/or with donated funds. I give several hundred dollars each year to groom trails to make it safer to ski. If you took your bike/dog/ were running at Hilltop Ski Area, or Alyeska you would be asked to leave and could be charged for theft of services. Same thing for ski only trails, or the mushing only trails. Safety is the big concern to many of us. I use multi-purpose trails and acknowlege the right of different non-motorized users. When I encounter non-skiers on ski only trails I try to direct them to the nearest appropriate trails. I also usually have bags in my pockets to dispense for dog doo on trails. (Not always accepted graciously).
I keep my tone civil, but don’t agree that we should just grin and bear bad trail behavior. Personally I find that bikers (by no means all) are a bit wose on riding abreast and not falling into single file to allow passing and take up more of the trail weaving about under some conditions. I am sure this is likely due to using clipped in footwear and not wanting to unclip or lose momentum, but with shared trails there must be some rules of the road i.e. downhill traffic has the right of way. Many walkers are deep in conversation and also do no fall into single file.
I probably complain to dog owners with unleashed, uncontrolled dogs the most. It is simply dangerous . On BLM land I know of people who have been ticketed for not having their dogs leashed. We all need to yield at various times. On BLM trails they have signs at the trailheads describing who should yield, and many users are not aware, or simply do not follow protocol. . . Standard trail protocol and clearer signage along with more knowledge about different trails and why they exist would help. .
Thanks for your comments! They are appreciated.
Not everyone appreciates our parkland being turned into “groomed highways.” As a matter of fact, that action is one of the ones that started the animosity; the ski club mowed down a popular singletrack and turned it into, as you put it, a highway. From that point on, the ski club has been at odds with other trail users. Personally I think that plowing giant roads through the woods and calling them “trails” really sucks, and I’d hate to see any more of that around Anchorage.
The difference between a ski resort and the ski-only trails is that the ski resorts lease the land they are on; they don’t just co-opt public land. The trails are not leased; they belong to everyone. Just paying some money to alter them doesn’t give a user group ownership of a piece of public land (if so, I’m off to claim a whole bunch of land for my own by doing some shoveling).
Your comment re: downhill traffic is interesting! Most of the time general etiquette dictates that traffic traveling uphill (or, in the case of ski resorts, traffic downhill from the person in question; same concept) should be yielded to. It’s usually the responsibility of the uphill person to yield. Should people fall into a single line when passing – probably – but not always. Two bikers can pass side by side on some of the huge trails we have in Anchorage. Most of the time encountering others on trails really isn’t that big of a deal; say hello and pass on by. Why make it any harder than that?
Generally I think sharing trails requires cooperation and good intentions. Of course there will be jerks in every sport. You can’t do much about that, but a little good faith goes a long way. For instance, if a skier passes a biker on a small trail, the skier can more easily move out of the way. Requiring the biker to stop, dismount, and tromp into the deep snow is fairly nutty if you ask me; just go around the biker and carry on skiing. Why create bad feeling? (Not saying you personally do this; it’s just an illustration of why “X yields to Y” trail management is silly).
One last thought about the mushing trails – the mushers have convinced so many people that mushing is incompatible with other trail users (see the signs posted everywhere: “DANGER!” on the mushing trail crossings) that when Dallas Seavey ran an innocuous mushing tour out of the Upper Huffman trailhead, the other users freaked out, thinking they were in mortal danger. Trying to prove you can’t share trails is bound to backfire someday, like it did on poor Dallas (who, incidentally, was always very polite and considerate every time I saw him and his team).
I sure am glad I don’t live in Alaska anymore. We have some issues with snowmobiles but most of us winter users are just so excited to be out there that we don’t put energy into hating. When snowmobiles cross the track I have slogged to break, and is marked as non motorized, I get a little annoyed but there are way worse problems in life.
Hey. Theres a call in show on kska dealing with crosscountry skiing. A great opportunity to publicize that sort of trail fascism and ask why there should be public funds spent for the benefit of one user group and the exclusion of everyone else. I believe its on at 2 pm but im not sure. Make your voice heard!
Its on thursday at 2 pm. Its called outdoor explorer.