I want to talk about a phenomenon that just won’t go away.
Because I am a woman, I am invisible around men.
My voice isn’t heard, my advice isn’t heeded, and my knowledge is dismissed. I’m a woman, what can I possibly tell men about climbing, about skiing, about riding motorcycles? What do I know about cars, about anchor systems, about search and rescue? What can I possibly have to contribute about gear?
Nothing, if one goes by the behavior of some men. I’ll try hard to make this article something more than just endless examples of being shunted to the side simply because I’m female, but after a few days around climbers, I’m seething.
You see, I’m sick and tired of the assumption that I’m just the tagalong portion of the mixed gender climbing, biking, or skiing group, that if they want to know something, they should ask the male part of the partnership. I’m sick of any and all variations on the following theme:
1. Male or males approach my group.
2. They ask a question.
3. I answer the question.
4. Male or males appear to not have heard my answer, for they ask again, looking at the male I’m with.
5. Male in my group answers question in same manner as I did just seconds before.
6. Male or males approaching group seem satisfied with the male-issued answer. They ask a clarifying question.
7. I answer it.
8. Male or males appear not to have heard my answer, for they ask again, directing the inquiry to the person of male persuasion.
9. And on and on and on and on.
Last week in Ouray my partner (male) and I were finishing up and packing up for the day when a pair of male climbers walked by. They struck up a conversation with my partner, who found that the climbers were looking for an open anchor on this very busy day at the ice park. I heard my partner tell them that they should check out a climb called Pick o’ the Vic – one we had done the day before which was a highlight of my trip. The climbers seemed interested as they got the beta from my partner. He was describing where it was and telling them that if they gave him a few minutes he could show them the location, when I interjectd that I was heading back to the car right then so I could show them where it was.
And they ACTED LIKE I HADN’T SAID A WORD. They pretended not to hear me. I mean they pretended HARD. I believe they even asked my partner another question at that point about where the climb was. In disbelief I heaved my pack on and said again I’d show them where the climb was, just to see what would happen, and they seemed to realize they couldn’t refuse to follow me without being complete d-bags, so they grudgingly shuffled along after me, trailing about 30 feet behind. It was very clear that they wanted someone with a penis to be leading the way. Luckily for me I was spared the company of these guys for long, for they peeled off at the first open belay, seemingly relieved at being out from under the onus of a female guide.
Just an hour before, we’d gotten into a bit of a discussion with a pompous guide, who accused my partner of climbing above his clients and exposing them to icefall. He wouldn’t even so much as look my way when I pointed out that our route was 25 feet to the right of his clients’ rope and around a corner, no less, so as long as he didn’t continue to purposefully stand in the path of any ice chunks, he’d be fine. He just kept directing his complaints to my partner, as if there weren’t two of us on that rope. As if the snow I’d kicked down on his personal space a few minutes earlier was the responsibility of my partner, the man belayer, instead of me, the woman climber.
This, on top of the dozens of other times men have exhibited similar behavior, made me vow to write this article. After all, it’s been on my mind for a while, especially since in recent years I’ve become a more avid mountain biker, and the sexism in that sport rivals that in climbing by a pretty close margin. I can’t even count the number of times my male partner and I struck up a conversation with a male biker, only to have the stranger completely, and I mean COMPLETELY ignore everything I said. It was like I wasn’t even there. It was kind of like, “excuse us little girl, the Humans With Penises are talking!” Seriously, they’d ask trail directions and ignore what I said until my male partner said it. They’d ask about one of our bikes and not react to my input until my male partner said the same thing. Sometimes they won’t even look at me. It’s just aggravating.
I decided to do a little research before writing this article and I came upon the term “mansplain” which refers to the habit of some men of pontificating on any given topic as if the person, usually female, in front of him has no knowledge or expertise of her own. This brought to mind the time my own dad painstakingly explained the difference between a magistrate and a judge – to my friend who is an attorney. Other examples of mansplaining are equally cringeworthy and hilarious – the professor who described in great detail to a younger woman a very important new book, without processing that he was speaking to the author of that book; the guy who took it upon himself to explain neurotransmitters to a female neurosurgeon, the men in my training classes who constantly interrupt to explain how the FEMA Incident Command System works, even though they’re taking the class from me because they don’t know the system. I can’t help but think that this “wait until the one with a penis says it” game is somehow related to mansplaining.
The mansplainers are somewhat easier to shoot down than the ignorers though. Some of the ignorers are so good at it that I really start to think that maybe they honestly didn’t hear me, even though they have no trouble hearing the man standing three feet behind me. One of these days I’m just going to snap and call someone out on it. Come to think of it, why haven’t I done that already? Just go ahead and say “excuse me, did you not hear me? Hello? Is there a reason you are pretending I’m not here? Do you want the man to just repeat what I say so you can believe it?” The only reason I can think that I haven’t done that is just simple disbelief. Every time one of these ignorers strikes, I’m left kind of startled and shocked, and trying to understand why they seemingly don’t hear me. I think for a second maybe they really DIDN’T hear me, so I try again. They ignore again. And every time, I’m so stunned that I don’t call them out on it. I believe it is time for that, at least, to change.
I’ll wager there’s not a man out there who will own up to this behavior, but there are a lot of them who do it. The stories are endless – the mountain biker who dismissed me in mid-sentence as I was explaining a new product to him that would solve the problem he was describing; stating that he knew of several other products that were exactly the same. But the thing was, he was wrong and this product would have been great for him, but there was really no telling him that. My two male friends who, in one fell swoop, dismissed everything I’d learned in my motorcycle track racing classes and clinics about braking. Another male friend who had never ridden a mountain bike in his life but found it reasonable to tell me, fresh from Crankworx, all about how downhill racing works. The men in my avalanche level 1 class who shut down everything I said even though they were clearly in over their heads and I’m an experienced backcountry traveler (hint: Don’t put yourself in the ‘expert’ class if you’ve never been on a tele setup in your life, dudes).
I don’t really get it. With all the whining about how hard it is to find women who do these sports, you’d think that guys would be thrilled to chat with a woman about their shared sports passions. But the macho know-it-all gene wins out every time with these dudes. They see a woman, they assume she knows nothing and is just tagging along with her boyfriend, who is clearly the expert in every situation. When she speaks up and proves their assumption wrong, they are still incapable of acknowledging that a gap in their own knowledge was just filled by a woman. They need the reassuring presence of a man’s voice to tell them it’s OK not to know, that now they know what other Men know, and they know at least as much as that woman over there.
Or so they think.
Funny today I was in the bike shop and a guy came in to ask for a bike box. I said “sorry we don’t have any”. My husband was on the phone and the guy stood there waiting for him to hang up so he could ask him the same question. Can you imagine how this goes when they have a real bike question? It’s odd because I experience this a lot in the outdoor industry but rarely at my “real job”. I am a software engineer and have been in the Corporate world for over 10 years. This is a field dominated by men but I don’t get the attitude I do at work nearly as much as I do in the outdoors.
Dude, I totally understand what you’re talking about. I get the EXACT SAME REACTION when I try to explain sewing nuances to the friends of the girl who I TAUGHT TO SEW!!! Seriously. They just look at me, nod politely, and turn back to her. It is so annoying.
( I am not making this up, btw)
Cheers 😉
I think, in order to respond accurately, I need to see some submissions of clothing that you have created, Greg. I for one would like to see how you interpret the nuances of sewing. I shall then decide whether to derisively turn my back on you when you try to help.
Well, geargals, I think that response shows that, just like most people, you make assumptions. Perhaps not a good idea, but we all do it all the time.
You assume that a male has less knowledge/experience when it comes to sewing. Probably true in most cases. Not in all.
When I was taking care of my small children, people (sometimes male, but usually female) would often assume that I was “babysitting” or “filling in” for the childrens’ mother. It used to annoy me, but I tried to ignore it and just move on.
I too sometimes assume that a female has less knowledge/experience when it comes to . Even though there are, of course, many extremely skilled and knowledgeable women in most outdoor activities, it’s true that women *are* in many cases tagging along with their male partner.
When I catch myself making assumptions like that, I try to stop doing it. It’s a bad habit because, even if the assumption is right most of the time, it’s wrong some of the time. And it really is annoying to be on the receiving end of it. So… I think we can agree that making assumptions about people based on their gender, race, etc. is a bad habit.
But this has nothing to do with being “macho”. And it’s not something that males have a monopoly on.
Actually, I didn’t say anything about whether I thought Greg could sew…I’m probably the first person to assume that anyone willing to sit down behind a sewing machine knows more than I do about sewing.
You’re making the same mistake that another commenter made below. He assumes the women are “tagging along” but he has no way of knowing that. It’s just an assumption, which, as you say, can easily be wrong.
Yeah. Totally. and, argh.
if you do call someone out post about what happened 🙂
Just occurred to me that maybe that’s why I often end up climbing with much less experienced men — if I lead every route and the dudes can’t even get off the ground on some of them, then maybe I don’t look like “the girlfriend”.
I will definitely post if I do that, lol.
Perhaps you climb with less experienced men because you are such a badass that most people are inexperienced compared to you? That would be my assessment. 🙂
Ah, yes…I have had this happen too. Interestingly, usually it’s not from the clients I have guided, male or female. Which is probably because most of them don’t know much about the wilderness and are relying on me to keep them safe and alive. They know I have way more experience outside than they do, which is why they hired me in the first place.
But some of the male guides I have worked with? Oh, yes indeed. Not all of them, to be fair, but enough of them have ignored me and my advice or insight. It’s silly, it’s insulting, and I often roll my eyes at them. Well, not in front of them, but afterward when I’m telling my girlfriends about the situation. I mean, really: if it’s truly life or death and I actually could save that other person, would he finally believe I actually know what I’m talking about and let me save his life? Or would he go to his death waiting for the male voice to rescue him instead? Who knows. (Ok, that’s melodramatic, but I believe it makes my point.)
Anyway, it’s a fascinating phenomenon that seems especially prevalent in the outdoor world. Sigh. Interesting post. Thanks for being brave enough to put it out there.
Not a climber (just a hiker) or mountain biker but this reminds me of house contractors who talk to me instead of my wife. “She knows more about it than I do” – no matter. They keep talking to me only like she isnt there.
Ha this has happened to me so many times…
I taught my boyfriends (not more than one at a time of course, haha) to climb. But often I’d show up at a crag (leading the way sometimes) and folks new to the area would ask the guy I was with questions about it. I’d answer and they’d either ignore me – or they would at least listen, so they weren’t “ignorers” but then they’d direct the next question to The Guy again.
This usually would continue unless said Guy would say something to the effect of, “She can answer you better than I can”.
A possible explanation one Guy put forth is that perhaps sometimes guys want to talk to the Guy so that they don’t look like they are hitting on the Guy’s “Girl” (me).
Wow! I was stunned reading your blog! I am in the UK and that attitude just doesn’t exist among the male outdoor populous. I mountainbike all the time and many other outdoor pursuits and just haven’t come across that. That would really really anger me if i were to be treated that way…. The male/s responsible would need surgery to remove the crampon that would be lodged where the sun don’t shine! 🙂
Good blog. Hope it makes people think. Let’s hope for a change of attitude soon.
This is really interesting as Euro attitudes tend to be even more sexist in my opinion. I’ll have to visit the UK to find out for myself 🙂
First of all, I’m a guy. Second, I’ve seen this behavior too many times to count. I, for one, couldn’t care less about the gender of the person giving me beta. Good beta is good beta. I’ve been outrun, outbiked, outclimbed and outsmarted by women all of my life. Big deal. I’m okay with it. I’m actually bummed there are d-bags still dragging their knuckles and kicking around in the outdoors who haven’t figured out that women might actually know more than them.
As a guide and nature photography workshop leader, I’ve observed a similar behavior while leading group photo workshops. Outdoor photographers, by and large, are men. In a workshop with 12 people, you might find 1 or 2 women in the group. What usually ends up happening is that the men dominate the experience. They ask more questions, they demand more feedback, attention and time, and they are generally more vocal when in a group setting. I noticed this early on in my career and I make it a point to regularly check in with the women in the group. I encourage them to ask questions (in private, if they don’t want to do so in front of the group) and I do everything I can to make sure they’re just as much a part of the experience as the men. If I were a betting man, most of these women have experienced exactly what you describe so many times that they’re just…over it.
Personally, I could care less what sex someone is when I ask a question. If you know more about it than I do, you get my attention. The female perspective can often add something extra, that I as a male wouldn’t see.
Guilty as charged! I’m sooo sorry, and honestly, sometimes I don’t realize I’m doing it, so by all means let me and the other guys know when we’re tuning you out.
This may not be popular – My best explanation would be that, well, the number of “tagalongs” far exceeds the number of bad-ass, in-the-know females like yourself and the other outdoor women I follow. I mean, do you know how many girls throughout the years I’ve dragged along to a race weekend or group ride? And do you know how many of them didn’t want to be viewed as a tagalong so they offered up any advice they could muster to anyone who would listen?
So again, all apologies and I’ll try to be more receptive to your advice in the future.
Oh, and @Eileen’s last sentence certainly holds water.
“the number of “tagalongs” far exceeds the number of bad-ass, in-the-know females like yourself and the other outdoor women I follow.”
Er, how do you know that, if you treat all of them like “tagalongs?” Might you just be making assumptions about these women?
I know tons of badass women. It just baffles me why men think they don’t know many. I think they’re really just not seeing it. They’re making assumptions based on the fact that they’re looking at a woman – they assume that she’s a tagalong. I’m sure the guys in Ouray assumed I was a tagalong, and maybe they’re at home discussing how they don’t know any badass women.
When I interviewed Rebecca Rusch, I asked her why people say it’s hard to find women mountain bikers, and she said she didn’t know either, because she knows so many. Why is it so easy for her and for me to meet women who are outdoor enthusiasts, but evidently so hard for men to do so? I can only conclude that the men aren’t paying attention or maybe they’re making assumptions.
This post reminds me of an experience I had on the John Muir Trail several years ago. I was hiking it with a good friend and her 13 year old daughter (who could kick most anyone’s ass when it comes to backpacking and running). As we approached one of the passes I saw my friend and her daughter chat with a man going the opposite direction – I was hanging about 300 yds back taking pictures and chatting with another group of backpackers – we were discussing stream crossings and campsites and whatnot. A few minutes later the man moved on and approached me.
Him: You with those girls up there?
Me: Yup
Him: Heading to the pass?
Me: Yup
Him: Man, it’s a hard climb from here. Gonna take you two, maybe three hours.
Me: Huh. Really? Doesn’t look too bad. (*I had just checked the map and GPS – we were less than a trail mile and maybe 800 vert feet of climbing away*)
Him: It’s a tough one.
Him: You’ll make it fine.
Group of guys, kind of laughing at him: Nah, we’re slow.
Him (to the guys): How was the stream crossing down there?
Group of guys: It was okay yesterday but it rained after. She crossed it this morning and would know what it’s like now (nodding to me).
Him: .
Me: *mind boggles*
Less than a leisurely 45 minutes later I was sitting on the pass snacking on lunch and snapping pictures and chatting with my friend. He had said the same thing to her.
That experience sticks out so much because he was the only person I have encountered on the trail that had so much clear disdain for ‘girls’ on the trail. It was just dripping from his words. Ugh. Thankfully he is a rare example.
Jill, you’ve been responsible for me spending a good hour trying to find a clip of a sketch from the 1990s comedy ‘The Fast Show’, so I could share the classic ‘Girl who Boys Can’t Hear’. It’d really resonate, as well as pointing up a few laughs at how ridiculous the guys are actually being… I’ve never encountered this in my outdoor life (but I’m still quite a bumbly) but have had it in my (former) professional life; nothing like speaking up with a clear and well researched view as a youngish woman to shock a group of older men into silence – before they pick up the conversation as though you’d never spoken! Keep calling them out on it and hopefully it’ll be obvious quite how ludicrous it is. And can Greg sort a webinar so we can all learn from his sewing skillz?
Your story and many of the comments are very familiar to most females I think. I see it in the male-dominated field that I work in, I’ve experienced it when I take my car to the shop, in intellectual discussion and, of course, outdoors.
Not much I can add to what’s already been said here except that it’s an attitude that is still out there and is completely infuriating. Luckily, the men that I *choose* to spend my time with aren’t like that at all.
Oh, there are plenty of men and women I could barely keep up with, including some of my partners in Ouray like yourself, so that can’t be it, I just somehow usually don’t end up climbing with them 🙂
I know, I know… I need to have more to offer, get better at belaying, not oversell myself, talk less and listen more, etc…
This makes my hackles go up… and reminds me of the last time i went car shopping. I don’t know much about cars so I took the one person in my life who knows anything about them, who is also very good at rationally weight pros/cons on big purchases; my dad. One sales guy fully ignored me, though my dad pointedly told him over and over to talk to me; I was the one shelling out the cash. The sales dude didnt change his approach and I bought my car somewhere else.
The annoying actions of these guys are really no different from any of the other disrespectful, condescending people (male or female) we meet throughout life. As frustrating as jerks at dealerships, jobs, hardware stores, or the crag are, it comes down to me. And my choice. Act like an asswipe? Ok. Then I choose not to buy a car from you, climb with you, share beta, or waste my time on you.
I’m lucky to have great friends, male and female, who listen, support, cheer (or harass) me on, ask for my input, who are my climbing/skiing/biking *partners*. I’ve wasted enough time with guys like the ones you describe; its not fun. I could spend a lot more time feeling annoyed and mad over these experiences. But they’ve already wasted enough of my time; they don’t get any more of my time or emotion spent thinking about the whys, hows, and injustices. I’d rather go play outside with people who are worth it.
*Disclaimer. I have a fiery streak, and certainly find myself frustrated now and again about these things. My comments above represent how I react 60% of the time, and how I aspire to react that other 40%
Oh, the car thing, agh! I just bought a new car myself. When I went to a dealer they treated me like I didn’t understand how interest rates were set. They kept giving me a line of BS which I don’t appreciate – this is the fifth car I’ve purchased in the last ten years, I know how it works. So I went to a dealership 3500 miles away that I knew would treat me fairly and not lie to me.
I, too, have lots of great male climbing/biking partners, and that’s important to recognize and to validate those guys for being awesome.
I had such a similar experience. I went to a dealership two or three times and looked at the exact same cars every time. I was trying to decide between two models, so I finally took my husband in to help me make the choice. The car salesman zeroed in on my husband instantly even though the car was for me and I was the one that had been doing the research and putting in the time. He’d seen me there every time I’d come in and had only said hello and given me the “come see me when you’re ready to sign the dotted line” speech. But he couldn’t do enough explaining to my husband who I eventually had to drag away. I was not a happy camper.
Jayson, thinking about this some more – I know plenty of guys who are completely useless in the outdoors. This doesn’t make me assume that every guy is that way, nor would it justify me ignoring people when they talk to me.
There’s some sort of assumption that all guys are just naturally good at athletics and outdoor activities and that women are usually not. Neither assumption is true.
“Er, how do you know that, if you treat all of them like “tagalongs?” Might you just be making assumptions about these women?”
I don’t think most men treat them all like tagalongs; I can assure you I personally don’t. Whether or not any of the men here want to admit it, I still feel that a guy who has spent a lot of time in the different outdoor “scenes” is almost conditioned to seek out an answer from a direct peer. Now, I know that wording can get me into trouble, so hear me out…
My background is in cycling, so in times past (which I apologized for above) I might have been given a helpful answer from a female competitor yet still pressed the original person I asked for a reply simply because he’s the person I sought out. Maybe we’re both rockin’ the same set-up, maybe he blew my doors off a race or two ago, or maybe I’ve seen this guy at different venues for the last 15 years. A lot of the faces stay the same as you age/class-up in the different outdoor arenas, and a lot of those faces are male.
Outside of competing, I really don’t care who gives me the information and actually find women to be more helpful.
Argh, I missed your more direct response! To answer that quickly, you’re absolutely right. Seriously, I’m not completely trying to play the Devil’s advocate here, but I think most guys aren’t purposely trying to blow you off either.
The things I’ve learned about my broadening outdoor interest from females like yourself is by far the most appreciated.
No worries, I know you don’t treat people badly (I can tell from your comments that you are reasonable and thoughtful!) and you have a good point re: peer. However that’s still based on an assumption that those men are stuck on; that women can’t be their “peers” in the outdoors.
I think that’s where it all comes from; that some men still have a hard time seeing women as equals in these sports.
It’s easy to dismiss this as the action of individual assholes, but this behavior wouldn’t be so common if it wasn’t embedded in our culture.
And apparently some guys think this is the “polite” thing to do!
I caught that part of the conversation as well. It’s so aggravating, because the desire to be “polite” to the man by not speaking to the woman is just another way of turning a woman into an object to be fought over and possessed. Some people have still not caught onto the idea that women are humans.
To be fair, I have been blessed with a good many climbing partners that are in fact male, and are in fact some of the nicest, most unassuming, nonjudgmental folks I know. Between my husband and I, I’m the stronger climber, but thankfully he’s my most avid supporter (and loves to take advantage of having a ropegun!)
That being said, however…I can definitely relate to this post. I can’t say that I’ve ever been downright IGNORED, but I’ve often realized that my beta isn’t as trustworthy b/c I don’t have a penis. Oddly enough, this seemed to happen to me even more when I was pregnant…You’d think that they’d realize that anyone out there climbing at 37 weeks is probably not tying in for the first time?!?
Thank you.
I thought it was something about me, that leads to me being invisible when I move around the world with man friends.
Your post brought back fun type three feelings about a time I spent in a lodge in Nepal surrounded by climbers. The men I traveled with, and me, and another group of western climbers all wound up sitting around a table shooting the breeze. When, after a few stories (during which I was unable to get a word in and finally gave up) the participants started introducing themselves to each other, they (LITERALLY) skipped me; and when I tried to insert myself into the handshake exchange, I was — hand outstretched, “Hi, I’m Sara” floating away from my mouth — totally ignored. I didn’t just feel invisible… somehow, I magically BECAME invisible.
It was a memorable experience, for sure.
I’m with Teresa. I’d rather go play outside with people who are worth it. But, that said, I feel the pain, often, and like that you’re bringing the phenomenon some attention…
Wow. That’s awful. Did you say something to your climbing partners?
It’s true what you say – we just someone become literally invisible to them and they must go deaf to the sound of our voices or something. It’s infuriating.
I run into this more than I really want to think about – which probably isn’t surprising given that I’m a female engineer with a law degree… and I volunteer a whole lot of hours to mountain rescue. I entertain myself by working at a nordic center or two – usually on the bench. I spend a lot of time doing things outside and use and abuse more than my share of gear. While I would never call myself a badass, I will probably kick you in the shins if you call me a tagalong. If I’m feeling feisty, I will probably put on crampons first.
I’ve been “invisible” at work, in gear shops (even when I’ve been WORKING in gear shops), in the backcountry, and on rescue calls. While I’d like to think that people don’t intentionally ignore me, I can think of a number of situations where I KNOW I have been intentionally ignored, and they piss me off. I used to rage, but as I’ve gotten a little older and become more confident in myself and my abilities, I’ve mellowed. Yep, this is mellow. I’ve reached a point where, if I have something worthwhile to say (this is the key), I will speak up. I’m also surrounded by an awesome network of people that are very much aware of what I bring to the table and they’re not willing to let me be ignored.
If I encounter a variation on the theme described above when I’m out with with a friend, the response is almost always “Didn’t you just ask her that question?” or “I haven’t ridden that trail in weeks, but she just rode it with the dogs yesterday – talk to her.” And if I hear a self-proclaimed badass spewing crap at a trailhead, I will provide my own input – hell, I like to think of it as “preventative search and rescue.” And be warned that, if I am ignored in a gear shop, I will ask questions about gear that will probably make your head spin – just to entertain myself.
Most importantly (I think), I don’t let any of it stop me, even if it pisses me off. If anything, it motivates me to be better at whatever I’m doing. As I am sure you know, it is incredibly satisfying to blow the doors off of the old boys club.
Jill,
I think the phenomenon is contagious among groups of men. No, I didn’t bother mentioning it to my climbing partners. I do have circles of friends where — if I weren’t successful in uninvisibling myself, one of my buddies would help me elbow back into the conversation… but that scene, that time, wasn’t one of them. I could have jumped on top of the table and shouted, “LOOK AT ME! I AM HERE!” but I’m pretty sure while that would have — perhaps — snapped the men out of their manmoment, it wouldn’t necessarily have made me feel any better than just deciding to check out, myself, and go read a book.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with friends a few years ago. My friend Mike brought up the observation that when guys don’t know the answer to something they make it up. It’s so true! I don’t think it’s lying, more of a situation where something cultural in us makes us think that by talking things through we can figure it out. Sometimes we get it right, especially if we know something about the subject to begin with. Lots of times though we’re just talking out our asses.
I think there is a cultural component that makes it hard for men to say “I don’t know” and inclines us to be experts in all things (even though that’s not remotely possible). Combine that with a sport that attracts people who are already mentally strong and it just reinforces those tendencies.
None of that excuses men who are total dicks to women.
Could be. I think it’s sad (in a pathetic way) for men (or anyone) if they can’t tell the difference between lying and “talking things through”. We KNOW you are talking out of your asses. It makes you blowhards, not “mentally strong”. Might one say that a mentally strong person wouldn’t be threatened by the simple phrase “I don’t know.”
I think the most offensive version of this type of person is the one who googles/iphones for every answer and then pretends he knew it all along. It’s the most offensive because it’s so OBVIOUS. Do they think we won’t notice?
I want to add: I don’t think it’s “cultural” because not all men do this. The mature, thoughtful, confident ones (the ones I hang out with) don’t pretend they know something when they don’t. I don’t think it’s our culture. I think it is a personality flaw in those individuals who behave that way. People don’t get to wiggle out of being called out for their bad behavior by saying “it’s cultural, I can’t help it!” That’s bunk.
I was reading this thinking how I hadn’t really come across this – then I realised, it’s not something that I ever came across in Australia. But living in North America (both the US and Canada), yes, definitely. I love the word ‘mansplain’ though!
I have seen this over and over. In my younger days I lived in a foot and pedal power world. back in the 1990 when mtn bikers were still kind of afraid to wear spandex body suits. Where did those days go?
I worked with kids for years and have to say that women and mothers can do the same thing to men under different circumstances (3 guys, 40 women and 100 kids from 2-6 is one that comes to mind) I’m 6-5 and 225 which is kind of hard to be invisible but I guarantee it is possible.
My life now involves dirtbikes as a focal point and I score a series that has grown from 40/race to 300/race. In the early days we had 4-5 women/race and now 8 years later we have 12-15/race. This is outdoor trail type racing not the flying high stuff you see on TV. We run about 6 categories in 3 classes with one being “Ladies” The class is competitive on it’s own but not so much with the rest of the field. Women don’t have to run this – they choose to. All of them do, or so I thought until a year ago.
One day this lady walks up. She was about 40, tall, athletic – girl like the others. She asked where to line up and I pointed out across the field where the Pro, Expert and Intermediate classes were for the next race and explained that the Ladies would be in the second race with the beginner guys (the speeds are similar by the way, it’s just a shorter race by about 1/3 the time/distance) She turned on me in a way I can’t remember since my 5th grade teacher/nun looked at me for saying the “S” word on the playground. She sternly explained that she was racing the Expert Class and spun away before I could push a breath from my collapsed chest. I felt small and I won’t soon forget how that felt. I asked around at who she was afterwards and turns out she is a 3 time national champion in another series. OOPS!
Was I wrong in assuming – yes. Could it be an understandable error given the odds I was dealing with – probably. I’m sure she walked away feeling like many of you have. It certainly wasn’t intentional. I am almost always an open minded person. i would like to say always but I know that I make mistakes now and again. I left California and found a place where I felt comfortable, where there were more people who were like me – outdoorsy, open minded, easy going. Turns out, I (not unlike many people) am a creature of habit and most comfortable around people like me.
It doesn’t really matter race, creed, sex, orientation or sport: I identify and am drawn to and listen to more and understand better those like me.
I really don’t believe that the invisibility, or mansplaining, or manmoments are limited to the a-holes of the world or to a gender or to a race – It comes down to trying to see the person in front of you for what they are every time. Every person is a new chance to be open and accepting.
I did find her and apologize later – she still won’t look me in the eye.
And I would be glad to share the invisibility I felt in a world full of women if asked – the stories would easily rival yours
Maybe you can point her towards this post and say it shows how sorry you really were?
Hm, but “given the odds it was understandable.” Really? Do most men race in the Expert class? When a man approaches you do you tell him where the beginners line up? Or do you assume he’s good?
One big problem here is that men/society tend/s to divide the world into categories; category A, B, C, D, E, and “women”. There are lots and lots of men who, say, don’t fit in the “A” category, so it’s realistic to ask questions to clarify which category they are in. Women, on the other hand, just get put in the “woman” category and that’s pretty much it.
Hmmm…I’ve been trying to think if I’ve ever come across this in the outdoor world, and I really don’t feel like I have- at least for it to be blatant enough for me to actually notice it. I could be oblivious. Maybe I keep talking and force them to listen to me? Or maybe the men I’m climbing with don’t add anything so they are forced to listen to me.
I guess I just never think of it as being an issue. I don’t have a chip on my shoulder about being a chick doing a whole bunch of “manly” activities (not saying you do).
About 8 years ago, I decided I wanted to box- like really box. So I show up at this inner-city boxing gym and say, “I want to box.” The owner of the gym tried to give me the ‘it’s a rough sport spiel” (as if I hadn’t figured that one out), and tried to basically talk me out of it.
Fast forward five months later when I’m a state boxing champion and the owner is trying to whore my boxing out to get better ticket sales.
I guess I just go about climbing/outdoor stuff the same way. I get out there and do it. And if someone isn’t listening to me or looking down on me- I usually just giggle inside, because they just put on their crampons upside down.
Who knows how long I’ll keep it inside. Being shit upon in grad school daily, has made me quite vocal in everyday life- mainly because I’m not going to put up with shit from anyone who isn’t writing my daily evaluation.
Funny story- a woman I work with at the hospital just told me this story last night about this doctor at another hospital who told her, “You can not talk to me that way…you’re a woman!” She just hysterically laughed at him to his face. He didn’t like it.
Now every time I go out, I’m going to be on the extra alert to see if people are ignoring me. I’ll get back to you.
Awesome, good for you! 🙂
I would like to think there is something I/we can do about it, but this just happened to me AGAIN – in avy school the instructor went around the group and got everyone’s name – but when he got to me he LITERALLY SKIPPED OVER ME. I spoke up and said, “um, I’m Jill” and he said kind of this hi/grunt thing. And to make a joke of it I said “Evidently I’m the invisible girl!” and….he said, “Yeah.”
Not in a funny/jokey way. I actually made the “WTF?” face at the rest of the group. Just…UGH.
Then, we were parking cars and some guys wedged their car so close to mine I couldn’t really get the door open to get my stuff. I asked them not to park there and they moved – but then a male instructor told them to park there. Do you think they commented that I had asked them not to? No, they just parked there. So I had to move my car if I didn’t want it banged up.
Grrrrrr it just makes me grind my teeth.
Funny — we were having this same discussion 30+ years ago.
Yes, it IS cultural. The good news is that some progress has been made. Back then, the number of men who had already recognized the trivializing of women was tiny; now I believe the majority of men “get it.” And another large percentage slip into stereotyping women now and then, but are genuinely trying to become more aware and avoid that behavior when it is pointed out to them. So, progress has been made, and more needs to be made as well — with stereotypes of all kinds.
One thing that I can’t quite get comfortable with, as a feminist from back in the 70s, is the use of terms like “chicks” and “girls” (even when spelled “grrrrls” or “girlz” or whatever!). And it’s often us women using the terms! To me, it smacks of African Americans who call themselves the “n” word. I’ve heard the argument that if you take “ownership” of a demeaning word (and “make it your own”), you take away the power of that word to demean you. I just can’t buy it.
Your readers may be too young to remember the supposedly “liberated” ad line that said, “You’ve come a long way, Baby.” Wow, did they miss the point, or what!
But, I digress…
Keep on reminding people when they stereotype and demean others — and remember that a CALM explanation of why their comment or joke or ignoring behavior isn’t right will probably have better results than kicking them in the shins with a crampon (or worse!). 😉
That’s crazy that he SKIPPED over you! What an a-hole. I just don’t get it.
I’ll see what I can do to send all the women I’ve wrongly stereotyped or ignored over this way. Unfortunately, after doing that to someone without having further regular interaction with them, there is really no way to go back and say – “I felt like an ass and because of how I treated you I’m changing my ways, sorry.” And in some cases, I wouldn’t have realized I did it so how could I apologize?
And no, every guy at these races is not assumed to be in the expert class, not by a long shot – hence the 30 or 40 classes we have for the 300 guys and 10 women. However, in my experience, there is a difference of how the same question is asked between the men and women I deal with in this particular situation and setting. Every guy who asks where to go states what race or what class they are looking for. So, maybe I was being tested(?). If so, I apparently failed that time. I won’t ever say I’m perfect. I’m also not the focal point for lining up since our start and finish are rarely adjacent to each other. I can’t really attest to other situations and compare my experience since these races are the one very repetitive setting I am in that apparently bred a stereotype that I didn’t notice until called out on it. All I can do is go forward from there.
I know it’s not possible. However, I think it would be so rad if any one of the guys who has acted like this towards me sought me out to apologize. The act of apology is great but the more important thing is owning up to the behavior, looking the person in the eye and telling them “you’re not invisible. I see you. I have always seen you. I was stupid to pretend you were not there. I’ll never do that to a person again.”
So snowshoeing today I ran into a woman and 3 guys on the trail. All mid 30’s on a casual hike. I said hi as I approached. The first two guys didn’t even look up. The woman said hi so I stopped and I asked her if she knew how to get to a lake I was going for. She stopped to tell me how far off I was and we began talking (more she was trying to help me fix my predicament). The third guy came up as we were talking, and I said hi a third time now. I wasn’t 2 feet from him and he barely looked up and sort of grunted as he passed.
Was I invisible?
Did I intimidate them?
Were all three just plain a-holes?
Was this young lady their queen who didn’t give them leave to answer?
I guess to some extent it doesn’t really matter. Somebody in their group was nice enough to stop and help.
Oh, no, that’s not the “invisible” phenomenon. That’s the “I’m A Badass” halo, otherwise known as the “I’m Awesome” act. The nuances of these scenarios can be hard to navigate without a lot of experience, so let me explain.
Lots of guys equate being cool/skilled/impressive/admirable with simply “acting like a total asshole.” I don’t know where they get this idea. Most of the truly awesome people I know are very down-to-earth and friendly. For some reason this correlation doesn’t trickle down to the standard weekend-warrior type of trail user. Most of these guys (at least from their behavior) believe that if they just avert their eyes, mumble, and act basically like they are just too good to even notice you, the casual observer will think they are world-class athletes; professionals, even. I first noticed this in Alaska where there was a marked difference between the nordic set/X-C MTB racer type and the rowdy downhillers (doing the best they can on the Powerline trail via car shuttles), in that the cardio nerd types were, on a good day, simply snobby, and openly hostile on the rest of the days. The downhillers were friendly and chatty. Hm.
Then I went to Whistler and found that the downhillers were almost universally douchebags. I also found this attitude in my own friends at a ski pullout at which we were all suiting up to ski but I was wearing something goofy so they didn’t recognize and therefore didn’t acknowledge me. They will never live that one down. So it’s probably not sport-specific all across the board, just in isolated areas. But anyway, I digress.
The “invisible” thing is a very gender-specific phenomenon; a way in which other people tell you you don’t matter to them and that you don’t have a voice in the conversation. The “I”m Awesome” halo is a drop-dead giveaway about the person’s own insecurities and is merely a way by which they try to make themselves seem cooler. The “invisible” thing isn’t “ignoring,” it’s the act of looking straight through a person, like they’re not even a person. The “Awesome” act is very transparent hyper-awareness of the other person’s presence and is really a desperate bid to be noticed and admired.
The former is extremely aggravating; the latter, just laughable. You’re so awesome you have to ignore people, eh? Well…good for you…I guess. In recent months I’ve met some seriously world-class athletes and they all have been genuine and nice. You’d never guess they were good at anything. Wait, that came out wrong. You’d never guess that they are superstars in their sports, because they don’t act like people’s perceptions of what superstars act like. Hey, lameass doughboys on the trails? Superstars don’t act like douchebags. If you’d ever met any, you’d know. So get over yourselves and learn to enunciate the word “hi.”
Wow. Great post. I’ve felt this too. As a ski patroller, I’m often mistaken for a man. Even wearing pigtails and more form fitting pants, I often turn around to an “excuse me, Sir.” When they realize I’m a woman, they seem to want to swallow their question, and look around my shoulder for a guy patroller to ask. It’s improved over the years as locals have gotten to know me, but still.
Imagine being a firefighter! I was on a scene and heard a couple of women squealing “oooh, firemen, they’re so hot!” I turned around and their faces fell and a few of them even said “oh….” in disappointment!
Great topic!
I have felt this many times as well, especially when I was new to outdoor sports particularly guiding.
(?’s in specifically male clients minds) A woman guide taking me up that mountain…. Teaching me these skills…etc… It took time to develop the confidence needed to be taken seriously. Meanwhile the male guides I worked with just had to show up, were taken seriously, and were immediately the ones questions were fielded to.
However a transformation happened…not to say that this happens all the time, but I noticed a big change with how I had to be in order to evoke a sense of confidence.
Women have to come off with a balance of self assured (almost cocky but not quite), vocal, straight forward, we can handle this and any situation we get into approach. We have to sell our competency in order to be taken seriously. Whereas men can just show up, we can’t. Hopefully this will change as our society has more examples of women in the outdoors being fully capable and competent.
With the way I have to appear to my clients they often times appreciate the female guide on the trip. We have different abilities than the male guides, and are able to bring certain nuances that men simply don’t. Now many times men on my trips come to me instead of the male guide, because they enjoy our interaction and the comfort I try to relay. Instead of a pissing contest it’s real… Let’s face it…. Men communicate in a different way than women.. if it were up to them and women were not in this world… they would probably resort to sounds similar to Tim the tool man from that TV show.. Tool Time…LOL
Jill, this post is just incredible, as is the discussion you’ve provoked with it. I’m floored by how much my brain is spinning, and this is the third time I’ve read it!
Thankfully, I can’t recall feeling invisible around the men I’ve climbed with. I’ve been lucky to have patient teachers and climbing partners so far.
In my relatively short climbing career, I can recall situations where I feel more invisible around my own gender than the opposite. It doesn’t happen often, but there have definitely been girls I’ve climbed with who make me feel like an outsider. They’ll assert themselves boldly, as if to prove they’re worth paying attention to, and I get left in the dust. I know men do this too; maybe it’s just a personality trait.
Regardless, I wonder if some women, in an effort to stand up for themselves and make sure the boys know they know what they’re doing, alienate members of their own gender.
Hi Katie,
You bring up an excellent point; though a slightly different topic. I’m going to go ahead and admit that I’ve been guilty of acting like that towards other women; to prove that I’m the awesome badass outdoors person and they aren’t. In my meager defense, this was years ago when I was much younger and much less self assured. I acted that way on a few occasions because I was insecure and I didn’t want anyone to think that I wasn’t just as cool as I looked.
I know better than this now, and I think it’s way cooler to be friendly and supportive to newbies and hardwomen alike.
There are also women who get a little, er, competitive around the more attractive of the man we share our time with, I’m sure. Most of my crowd is really serious about their skiing and climbing so this isn’t an issue, but sometimes when I see some of the outfits on display at the climbing gym or some of the silly behavior at the apres-ski pub, I have to wonder. Still, we have to try to not judge each other so harshly. Poor behavior is usually a result of lack of confidence or self-worth, so such people aren’t really acting that way out of spite. Who knows, maybe the men who find us invisible are the same?
I think there is a little more to the “invisible” thing than just that; there seem to be many reasons for it. It’s just a fascinating topic and by far the most commented-on of anything I’ve ever written!
I have pondered this blog since you first wrote it and decided to write my thoughts so I can put it behind me. I heartily agree with your observations that the men who behave in such a bad manner lack self confidence, don’t know if they’re coming or going, and are quite insecure. Though I understand this and it makes me sad for them, it still hurts my inner soul when I am not greeted or acknowledged properly in such situations.
Jill, this is a great post. I am not that old, but I am old enough to know that women are smarter climbers than men, and that if I am lost, it is because I am a man, and I should ask a woman for directions. Some of us know how to listen. Most of the time.
I feel you more than I can say. I’ve found myself amidst a profession that is the boys clubs of boys clubs and experienced many less-than-nice situations. However, it is the exception and not the rule who behave so poorly.
I think you have a great perspective and taking it with a big hunk of salt and a laugh is the way to go even if it can cut a little deep sometimes. My approach has always been to have confidence, a firm handshake, speak up and always, always be yourself, regardless of the company.
I think that this is a great piece of writting. I think you are approaching the topic in a professional manner that validates not only your total knowledge, but also you as a person having the ability to handle the closed minded outdoors’men.
This is a great piece of writting that i hope stretches far and wide reaching a multitude of lap tops of the chauvinistic ‘D-bags’ that majority of the outdoors world relies on to feed their egos.
Take away the bike, skis, kayak, and pic……all you have left is the person.
For better or for worse, keep writting about your experiences.
You’re so right – we are not the sum total of our outdoor gear and who we are and how we treat each other means so much more than the grade we climb or the number of days we ski every year.
I’m coming late to this discussion, having just recently discovered your fab website, so I have little meaningful to add. Just a couple of small points, perhaps, to flush out the discussion.
I’m old enough now that I no longer feel shame on behalf of all men for behaving badly; these folks are generally the product of generations of similar behaviour passed down to them by their forefathers (the sins of the fathers will be carried by the sons…unto the third generation, lol). For there to be meaningful change for the future, firstly, the men who you’re with, and for whom you’re being ignored in favour of, need to stand up and point out that your input has equal or greater value, and that it is rude to be ignoring you. Anything less is tacit approval of this kind of socially inept and ungracious behaviour. Sometimes public humiliation is the only thing that can get through to a troglodyte.
Secondly, adult behaviour is notoriously hard, if not impossible, to change. We need to educate these guys when they are still boys, before their family/friends/culture have created a world view that allows it to be OK to ignore women. I have no idea how to do that, but the more female role models these boys can see, the more likely that real change can happen (maybe not in your lifetime, but you can be part of laying the foundation).
As for me, I have 2 kickass daughters who have learned from an early age to not accept anything but equal treatment, and I’m hopeful that their children will no longer have to feel invisible around men.
Finally, this is an excellent blog post, but will not reach the guys who need to be hearing it. I would encourage you to publish it also in a venue that would have a wider audience.
Thanks for writing in, Ron. Glad to hear you’ve got some rad little daughters!
I agree that “speaking up” is the only way to change this behavior. I was a little saddened to get a little pushback on this article from women (just a few of them) who swore up and down that such things could never possibly happen. The thing is that all women benefit from the actions of the few who are willing to be the cheese, standing alone, even if only for a short time. Thanks, by the way, to you and everyone else who wrote in with their own stories about this “Invisible” phenomenon.
I have been considering submitting this piece for publication in other venues – I’ll look into it now that you’ve given me a shot in the arm about it.
I was in a bike shop in Colorado this summer and there was a husband and wife there, shopping for a mountain bike for the wife. The bike shop salesman talked to both of them for a few minutes, then his colleague led the wife into another room.
The husband then turned to the clerk and said, “okay–hard-tail, full-suspension, carbon, aluminum, whatever. All that matters is that her bike is not as good or better than mine.”
Then they struck a deal as soon as the husband described his mountain bike. His wife returned and they told her which ones she could choose from.
He was doubting any competence in his own wife! I’m sure he listens to her when they go mountain biking…
I know exactly what you’re talking about. My own husband even does this to me. I’ll be having a conversation with someone about the skiing or climbing or running we did that day and when he finally tunes in to what we’re talking about, he takes over. As in, nudge me to the side, raise his voice, and puff out his chest. I’ve started calling him out on it every time but it hasn’t stopped him. It’s supremely frustrating. It doesn’t help that I’m usually out with guys when I’m doing stuff.
I feel like I’m treated like the tag-a-long most of the time and, unfortunately, this has caused me to actually THINK that I’m the tag-a-long. I’ve branched out a lot in the last few years with learning new sports. First rock climbing, then ice, then big mountain alpine, and now skiing. Though I really enjoy all of these sports, it’s hard for me to know how good I am because I spend all my time with people who are so much better than me.
I also feel like dudes want to “best” girls when they can. They’ll go to the point of embarrasment, certain failure, or even possible physical harm to out-do a girl. I took up ultra-running last year and often talk to my husband about the races that I’ve found that I hope to be able to complete one day. Though he’s complained about how much he hates running and how much it hurts his knees since the day I met him, he too took up ultra running. Once, I was telling him how I think it’d be so cool if I could be good enough one day to do a 300 mile race and he proceded to launch into monologue about how he was going to run the Iditarod some day. Because the dream to run 300 miles is a miniscule one that must be squashed and outdone!
Don’t get me wrong, I love my husband to pieces. He seems to be good at everything he tries and I like having him around because he’s constantly teaching me new things and taking me out on adventures. But the selective hearing seems to be a tendency of him and his friends and definitely gets frustrating. Though I’m a generally soft spoken person, I love sharing advice or telling someone how my experience was so that hopefully theirs can be better. I’ve started a habit of continuing to talk, even when I’m cut off by whatever guy it is that I’m with. This way, we’re both talking at the same time so neither of us can be heard. Maybe someday they’ll catch on.
Believe me, they won’t.
Believe me, a (small) percentage does already and it goes without question.
As always, its good to read what is written here.
Thanks Alex!
Do you think that, being one of the small percentage, it was something you had to learn? Or were you raised to “see” women from the start?
I had an experience at my avy course this weekend that reminded me so much of this post. Besides me, there were two other military members taking the course- two dudes in the Air Force National Guard (a branch which us Army folks consider to be weak sauce). All weekend the instructors (all men) kept highlighting the extra knowldege that the two dudes “surely” had because of their experience in the military while completely ignoring me.
For example, at one point the group was doing some work with a terrain map and the instructor asked if any of us “besides Matt and Chris who are in the military” had ever used one before. I though to myself “I only spent two summers of my college carrer tromping miles through woods and swamps with 50 lbs of military-issue gear on my back and an M16 in my hand with no way of knowing where to go besides the map and compass in my hand, but nope, no, never seen one of those things”.
Same thing happened with medical experience. The instructors assumed us girls had no idea how to put a bandaid on a cut even though I sit through powerpoint shows chocked full of pictures of severed legs and blown-off faces every 6 months to become Combat Life Saver qualified. I could probably fix a sucking chest wound with a Dorito bag if it came down to it. My story about giving an IV with night vision goggles didn’t seem to be as interesting as those dude’s mustache-growing competition though. When I mentioned that I jump out of airplanes on a regular basis for my job I was met with a brief blank stare followed by swift change of subject. Apparently dudes really don’t like being shown up by a girl.
I don’t say all of this to toot my own horn, but to highlight that even an impressive resume in a male-dominated work place doesn’t seem to penetrate the tunnel vision.
[…] read and participated in discussions and debates about male and female roles, bad male behavior, rotten men who pretend women are invisible, selfish men who hog all the gear and the attention and the adventure movies and the magazine […]
I am just finding this post, but had to comment. I have noticed this too many times to count, but I often take it personally, because I am not super aggressive or outspoken, and I assume it is ME. And I think to myself, “You really need to speak up more, or talk with more authority, or be more confident when you say something.” Which I do, probably, but at the same time, I shouldn’t have to completely change my personality for someone to take what I say seriously. This article and comments hit home on so many points that I’m a little stunned. Not sure if I’m sad that so many other women experience this, or glad that it’s not just me.
I do have to say that I had a great experience recently with a group of guys (who granted, all have known me for years) where I couldn’t verbalize what I was feeling, but explained to them that I really just got a horrible, creepy vibe from the situation. And they all took that very seriously, to the point of changing their actions–when I was almost expecting to get teased for it. Of course, the fact that that stands out for me, and that it surprised me, says a lot, too.
I love how much this post resonates, even as time goes on. It was scary for me to post it because I, too, had that feeling that it might be just “me”. Then this behavior just got too blatant for me to ignore so I wrote the post. Hearing so many stories from other women has been vindicating.
I’ve had the same experience in another sport. I’ love flyfishing; my husband admires the sport but doesn’t want to participate. Everywhere we go, other fisher “men” and guides talk to him, even though he reminds them I’m the one with some experience. I try to laugh it off, but one episode still rankles: I was inviated to be part of a teaching crew for beginning women flyfishers. In the MIDDLE of my demonstration on casting, one of the male teachers came up and took the rod out of my hand (literally) and proceeded to show the assembled women how HE does it –and hof course how it SHOULD be done. I was speechless, lost a lot of credibility with the women, and still am annoyed at myself that I didn’t say something right then!
Sometimes that behavior is so ludicrous that it’s just unbelievable. I’ve had similar experiences though I’ve long since learned not to let it slide! My most recent one occurred when, after mobilizing my entire neighborhood to come to a public meeting about a traffic issue, and after months of conversing with city officials and legislators, they all started looking to my neighbor as the spokesperson – because he has a penis. It’s just maddening and worst of all, they think we don’t notice them doing it.
I had a college prof who did this.. She was female too. She would ask a question and I would have an asnwer but she would not hear me.. She would only hear the male students who gave the exact same answer. I realized that the male students answered in more assertive and self assured tone of voice. Perhaps if I answered with more confidece (even false confidence) she would have heard me?
[…] What happened to our sport’s trademark diversity? Guys – and I do mean ‘guys’* – you have a tonne of scope for improvement here. Because actually, I do want to read about women riders as well as men, and I’ve got a bunch of fellow female riders who are just as interested. And we’re sick of being ignored. […]